Operation Market Garden

@11nytram11: That sounds pretty interesting. Alexander was a better British General than Monty in my book.

@UStheFA I’ll – somewhat – let you off on that because you’re an American & Alex was very American in style (give vague orders & rely on subordinates initiative to do the rest) but had you been British I would have shot you down without mercy. I dont have a good word to say about Alex the general – as a soldier I do but as general I dont – in my book he was one of the worst generals of the war. How can you rate the man who messed up the Italy and Sicily Campaigns through command neglect highly?

Monty was an ally, his heart was in the right place. Had he jumped into Arnem with his men, I would have more respect for him. As it was, he made a terrible mistake and Ike should have crap canned his “market garden” plan. Always remember, the one thing it can always do is to get worse.

@bdcetm1 Why would Monty have jumped into Arnhem? He wasn’t a paratrooper, he didn’t know anything about paratrooper warfare - that’s why he let known paratrooper experts Frederick Browning and Louis Brereton plan and execute the operation – he was an infantryman and land-based general. One of Monty’s core beliefs was to let the air force command air based operations. Would you want an infantryman who knew nothing of air-based warfare go muddling about in those things?

@bdcetm1 And Eisenhower fully believed that MARKET GARDEN was well worth the risk, and it was, but if we’re to lay blame on people with hindsight then Ike must shoulder a great deal. As SHAEF he was the man responsible for chosing which operations were undertaken and what support they recieved. He did not put the clearing of the Scheldt high on the priority list and he failed to give MARKET GARDEN the support he promised it and also transfered material, transportation and supplies away from it.

You should add info about Polish and Canadian soldiers in this operation, in the description.

@TheDzikusPL I may just do that.

this video is for me another proof of montgomery’’s failures he was the worst commander is history ok he won from rommel in afrika but rommel had less fuel less tanks less ammo less supply and montgomery had much more troops and still he had many many losses and rommel too but not as much as montgomery.
montgomery should have gotten the electrichair so he can never be a commander
and btw the germans own america en britain in ww2 with less man ohh yes iam no german if you think that

@DutchClubSounds When Monty first beat Rommel he did so when the 8th had material parity with the Panzer Army and the Panzer Army had slight manpower superiority – look up Alam el Halfa. Rommel lost about 2,900 men while Monty lost about 1,700

At 2nd El Alamein he built his advantages over Rommel and prepared thoroughly for the operation, this saved more lives than if he had tried some Patton/Rommelesque mobile assault. Rommel lost about 30,500 men at El Alamein while Monty lost about 13,000.

@DutchClubSounds The casualties at the Battle of Medinine were low but Rommel was still defeated by Monty with ease. The next time they fought each other was during OVERLORD & Rommel was wounded before its conclusion. Monty, on the other hand, was the principal architect of the OVERLORD plan & the Allied Ground Forces commander who executed it. OVERLORD was the single biggest victory the Western Allies won in WW2 & even Monty-haters like Omar Bradley said it couldn’t have been won without him.

@DutchClubSounds Hate to burst your bubble, but Germany had more men in the Western front than the Allies did… Also, saying “LOL WORST COMMANDER EVAR” is kind of immature. Have you factored in that Rommel, while having fewer men and dwindling supplies, had far superior tanks and equipment than Monty? Jesus, use your head. A crusader stood no chance against a Panzer IV at range, let alone defensive deployments of the 88s!

@ScotDaimyo Good point my friend. Good point.

We were so close to Arnhem. Literally the brits were right across the Rhine. And if we captured the Bridge we might have gotten to Berlin faster too, besides taking down German war industries

Monty’s main mistake was underestimating the German defense. He also let the German units slip from being captured on the island.

I read Cornelius Ryan’s book. And yes Im an american.

@Dengar12000 For your reference:

The footage comes from the Grand Campaign section of a game called “Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far”, made by Atomic Games (a company which still exists).

Also, the ordinal number for an army corps is typically written in Roman numerals: so ‘30 corps’ would be written as XXX Corps.

Presumably copyright still exists on the footage, but I don’t know: did you have Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far? Or where did you obtain the footage, yourself?

@Dengar12000 Also, there are a bunch more videos from that game, but I don’t have them anymore: for each stage of the operation there was a video, from both the Allied perspective (like this one) and the German perspective.
The German perspective video for the start of the grand campaign had a voice over that started like this: “At twelve hundred hours, the sky is filled with parachutes. You’re taken completely by surprise – allied armor pushes through your frontline.”

@palladiumcoupling Actually, Atomic Games only recently became a game company again, and it looks like they might go out of business again.

Copyright no longer exists for Close Combat 1 and 2, as far as I know Matrix Games originally bought the copyright, but now CC1&2 are officially classified as shareware. I obtained this footage directly from the game disk, as I bought Close Combat 2 in 1999. I still play it occasionally.

@Dengar12000 Where did you find out that CC2 is shareware now?

Yep, I bought CC2 in ‘98, just when it came out in my country, after having enjoyed the CC1 demo.

Do you play online? There is a contingent of players at the TournamentHouse ladder who play regularly if you’d like to join.

Have you seen the Matrix Games update of ABTF, its called Last Stand Arnhem?

@DutchClubSounds
Montgomery won Normandy the most important battle in the history of Western Europe..
It was for this reason that Zhukov awarded him the Victory medal.

Monty’s long lasting success was to make sure the Soviets would not go into Denmark & the rest of Scandinavia.. from Operations Plunder & Varsity..

@palladiumcoupling I do not play Close Combat online, and yes, I have kept up with the latest news and developments on Mooxe’s site.

The Brits only win when Americans do most of the fighting.

Monty always fought a battle he could win. Unfortunatley he was so full of himself he disregarded all the intel on the Panzers in Holland. Too bad, if he played his cards straight he might’ve actaully won the war by christmas….

I’m little unclear as to where the Air Force was during the whole debacle. You could never operate a land force in any war with planes constantly bombing you ass off. ?????

@1dschamp In world war 2 you couldn’t just call in some air support. The US army didn’t have dedicated FAC’s until late ‘44, and even then, they were a regimental asset. Planes were not available at night, in low visibility, in overcast conditions, when it was raining, when there was sufficient AA fire, or the threat of enemy aircraft.

In Holland, we ran into all of that stuff.

A salute to all who have fallen in this operation, and war! Thank god that The Netherlands, Europe and the World were saved from Nazi control. Je maintiendrai! Greet Dave from The Netherlands

Google ‘Parachute 2 Club’ for 2 PARA photo archive.